Frame Trap - Episode 40 "Someone Let Us Out of Our Cage"

For Hottake: Ben, I'm really interested on your point of view regarding the news about DB FighterZ having a 35$/€ season pass with 8 new fighters. The game so far doenst have that big of a roster and I think is a dangerous step towards single player games. Every game now has a season pass and a GOTY Edition including all DLC. Nioh, SF V, Horizon, Dishonored 2, Fallout 4, the Souls games...enough is enough. I want to get a full product when I buy a game, not some incomplete thing. DLCs like The Old Hunters from Bloodborne, Left Behind from TLoU or Hearts of Stone from TW3 are legit some of my favourite experiences I've ever had, but I strongly feel they've been ripped out from the main game just to get some money out of us passionate gamers, those who they should be taken care the most. I love games and it breaks my heart to see this happening, to see where this is gonna lead. I'm not going to buy DB FighterZ, a game I was looking forward to play with my friends because it stands in the way of my beliefs and what I think is right for a hobby I absolutely love. I pains me, but it pains me more that I cant do anything else to fix this. Please be a platform and give us voice to protest these harmful practices. I love your work, amazing podcast. L&R.

I'm curious, would you all be willing to pay $80 to $100 for a AAA game w/o lootboxes or season passes? I would. I really think video game prices need to rise. If enough do it, people will still buy. Thoughts? L&R

TravelingSnowman

Thanks for the Secret of Mana discussion! I just got a SNES classic and started replaying it. A quick look would be awesome, Brad! I wish Seiken Densetsu 3 would get an official English release. SoM is great but the sequel really improves on things. It even has the multiple choosable main characters with their own stories thing that Octopath Traveler (and Original Sin 2 kinda) has.

I was really hoping for some South Park love on this podcast. I spent 10 hrs on it yesterday thinking I could finish quickly (I was mistaken), and had a damn good time. Anyways, great podcast.

Lawson72

And after listening to this podcast, I saw this article. The tactics are going to get shadier... <a href="https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/activision-patent-matchmaking-microtransactions/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/activision-patent-matchmaking-microtransactions/</a>

DancingElk

I think the point is that if 100 people don't buy a game, the company loses $6000, which they won't necessarily notice. If those 100 people all make a fuss on social media and by writing articles and so forth, they will make more of a difference, not least because it may start to spiral and persuade other people and become a 'meme'. I don't think they said that voting with your wallet is 'pointless', only that other things are more effective.

Samuel Cardwell

Hey guys great episode as always. When Kyle was describing Hob I thought about Invisible Walls when in that show you would show a trailer of the game when talking about it. Helps a lot to visualize what's being said. Could that be done here or is it a money thing? Sure in IW the trailer would loop several times and could be annoying so maybe one run of it. Just a thought. Cheers!

Samuli Vuorinen

I disagree that voting with your wallet is pointless, it is one of the fundamentals of capitalism, sure one or two sales matters little but it only means that they haven't cross the line for most people, not everyone has that much reach that their voices matter in social media like you Kyle. I also believe that the tolerance for this kind of abuse is based on individual products, card packs for example have been around for years and in essence identical to loot boxes, that means we can't just label loot boxes as evil and be done with it. Think of it this way, if further experimentation prove that if a core game is good enough to allow some un-intrusive microtransactions to put in without harming its player base, then later on its competitors see it as an opportunity to surpass them by learning what makes it good and forgo the microtransactions to compete for the same player base, thus in the end evolve not only gaming as a medium but also as a business. What I am trying to say is that I believe in freedom will always result in benefit in the long run, as long as people remain intelligent, educated and dignified, and I believe it is the voice of the media (meaning people like EZA) that will keep us informed to make the right decisions.

BHL

Hey Ben, music question: This Friday, the new Trivium record is being released. What do you think about them? L&amp;R

Timo Arnken

I only really have an issue with microtransactions if they start to interfere with the core game itself, which I'm not sure that I've actually come across yet myself. That said, from what I hear it sounds like Battlefront II players who pay up can get stronger weapons that others can't (not sure whether this can be confirmed or not) - that would be a case of interfering with the core game and I would immediately reject a multiplayer game that is inherently unbalanced. But if these companies can bring in some extra profit by offering up these loot boxes for the 'whales' who are willing to pay extra, without damaging my own experience, then I suppose they are in a better position to continue to reinvest in their games going forward. So in that sense I think I can let it slide for the most part... for now.

V8 Dave

The SW Battlefront 2 beta is close to the breaking point for me on micro transaction bull. I've tolerated it in games like Madden bc it is a side mode (even though they don't give a rats ass about franchise now bc of it lately) but making all your progression tied to random drops is infuriating... Yet I love SW... I LOVE SW... I'm not going to miss out on some BF2 just like Kyle says... But I will refuse to buy any loot boxes and tell EA to shove it up their ass. I'm almost to the point of boycotting things if they get any worse.

Brogan Trull

Hear, hear! I've got Prime too... I can't wait after release or I get shafted unless I want to wait ages for it to drop off in price to what I would have got pre-ordering

Brogan Trull

Correction: EZA podcasts are top tier… TOP. TIER! Now with that out of the way, thank you for having the loot box conversation. I’ve said pretty much all I’m going to say about them in other comment sections on here, but you guys really touched on the thing that I think I truly hate the most. I think “that line” Ben mentioned, has just been crossed for me personally. I’ve never been a fan of microtransactions, and even how even dlc is handled in some games (More so in the past, but certain racing games come to mind, or when you can kinda clearly tell it was an afterthought etc.). I’ve softened my stance on some of that stuff, I get it, they need the money, I’m just personally not going to buy any of it, and that was always how I made my stance, but now, even that doesn’t feel like enough anymore. Loot boxes are just the step too far, there are just insidious and predatory in their nature, and their mere presence can now actively affect my enjoyment and opinion of a game, it’s gotten that bad. The worst part of it is, now it makes me genuinely feel bad for even wanting to buy a game, that I may other wise love, and a part of me feel guilty the times I do buy the game. Somehow, they’ve actually managed to turn the experience of buying a game, that I WANT, and am excited about, into a bad one, and that really f’ing sucks.

BeatenDownBrian

Man, I'm only 1 hour in and it's hard for me to put into words how much I've enjoyed this episode so far.

This was a great episode!

Easy Allies, We need that franchise drafting stream!

Great take on loot boxes. On post-launch reviews, probably necessary for the reasons stated, but there has to be a certain balance while there's so much pressure to preorder with things like exclusive content and the 20% Prime discount. Maybe previews could be more critical?

Games have been $60 (regularly, in the US) since about 2005. Inflation has gone up just about 25%. That means that the cost of games really should be $75 (not including tax) if they were a normalized item. I get why companies have maintained $60 as a baseline, but we are definitely getting much less game for that price. <a href="http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/</a>

GW Fawkes

Ben, thank You for being so thoughtful, professional and passionate about how You cover games and do reviews.

Just my two bits. Loot boxes, like anything else, are not good or bad in and of itself. For instance, in Fifa what happened was you had a franchise that was getting better and trying with each iteration, creating new game modes, improving graphics and gameplay, getting to a point of universal acclaim. What they did was threy created a whole new mode using game packs. They didn't change any of the already existing game modes at all. You could and can to this day play all the other game modes, from traditional seasons, online and offline, to become a pro, to the manager side, co op, single player and multiplayer, and now with an entire new story mode. The ultimate team is a separate game mode, added to the game, that does not affect any of the other game modes. And they kept improving the game in all the modes equally. It's not at all the same thing as Battlefront, where the basic progression system is tied to loot boxes.

Miguel Pires Ramos

It's a shame people know Gorillaz so well but not Deltron 3030, Del did that rap, and Dan the Automator who is a producer for Gorillaz is also the producer for Deltron 3030. The music is SO GOOD! It's hip-hop without all of the bad things of modern hip-hop.

How much of the problems with game coat and development is the fault of publishers? Also isn't a lot of offset from some games handled by deals with other brands like food companies?

Chris H

Also, YES BEN... please try Kerbal Space Program! You may want a few basic mods to get the most out of it, but it is incredibly fun, and it'll give you a great appreciation for just how amazing that stuff is in the real world.

Bradley Spies

Oh man, Ben is just as addicted to the last St Vincent album as me. Bromate, soulbro ? Anyway, great pick Ben, Masseduction is so good. (also listen to the last LCD Soundsystem "American Dream", my 2nd favorite album this year)

Térence Caron

I agree that more options, in regards to pace, is positive. However, purposely making end game story content a grind, to coerce people to spend money is not providing options. It is akin to the methods in mobile games. Making you pay to increase the pacing. Especially if it makes those who do pay, to increase the speed, dependant on chance. Loot boxes should not be the method use to control the pacing of a game.

What? Are you serious? No it isn't. They discussed this on the podcast when they talked about the attacks individual members of the Bioware animation team were getting on twitter after Mass Effect Andromeda. They said it's never ok to target individual members of a design team, but it's absolutely ok to criticise or lampoon a company. This is this same thing. And anyway, making fun of something does not "pretty much mean heckling" nor should it be considered harassment. What are you talking about? If a company does a dumb thing, criticising them with humor is one of the best things you can do to illustrate their mistakes. Honestly you should be the one to think before you post instead of trying to make Kyle feel bad or guilty about a perfectly reasonable statement he made. I

Cash

great topic on loot boxes but I am just blaffeled that nobody said anything to kyle that endorsing making fun of lootboxes via twitter is pretty much heckerling and is considered harassment. where is the L&amp;R from kyle please think before you speak or edit it out in post. These are the reasons why I consider to stop supporting EZA sometimes.

Christophe Fettouhi

Reinforcing the idea that it's ok to skip some games (or at least wait) is definitely a good reminder. Loot boxes happen because they work, and you probably can't change that other than by making your own choices. That's not just about holding your nose and playing through them, but it's also about ignoring the discussion when it turns to something that you don't care about. Don't force yourself to play games with systems that annoy you, but also don't force yourself into conversations (about loot boxes, microtransactions, multiplayer balance, anything) that annoy you. Also, don't assume that there's no market for loot boxes like Shadow of War's (or Battlefront's) among people who legitimately want (I won't say "need") that kind of advancement. Some people just don't have the time to progress normally. Obviously it'd be preferable if games gave us more control over pace without having to pay for it, but systems like that exist because there are people who probably wouldn't buy the game otherwise. That's never going to go away, it's just a question of finding a way to do it that doesn't leave a bad taste in our mouths I suppose.

Bradley Spies

"Finally someone let me out of my cage......"

It's predominantly western game developers chancing their luck. Cannot believe they are finding ways to put them in single player experiences.

Lord of the Rings: Shadow of Microtransactions

I did not realize "sucked in" was Aussie only. It's like saying "tricked you" I guess.

Loved the editorial Ben!

Cash

Great))

Thank you Ben for taking a stance and giving your opinion thoughtfully on lootboxes, not shying away or criticizing this or that part of the gaming community like some other medias. Proud to be an EZA patreon once again. L&amp;R

Térence Caron

Great stuff Ben, when thinking about micro transactions it's easy to say it's not a big deal when you have a large disposable income but it's harder to think about the child who lives in this ecosystem And has to beg their parents to pay for this loot box and the guy who's making ends meet who just wants to plays games with his buds having to deal with stuff like this.

I absolutely do not agree that these games are only $60 because of Loot Boxes and Microtransactions. I think that's become an accepted Excuse and I do not buy it one bit, especially after it's come out how these mega-publishers push absurd amounts of money into Tax Havens. Shadow of War is not a game that needs Loot Boxes to be sold at $60. I'm tired of people trotting out this comment in defense of them and I refuse to accept it as a defense of them. These companies are not poor and struggling and they funnel literally billions of dollars into places like Holland: <a href="https://thecorrespondent.com/6942/bermuda-guess-again-turns-out-holland-is-the-tax-haven-of-choice-for-us-companies/417639737658-b85252de" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://thecorrespondent.com/6942/bermuda-guess-again-turns-out-holland-is-the-tax-haven-of-choice-for-us-companies/417639737658-b85252de</a>