Easy Allies Podcast #77 - September 13th 2017

If you are the type of person to say "keep politics out of games discussion" you miss the point (of pretty much every facet of life, let alone gaming) and, as a dev, I say you're actually contributing, albeit unknowingly, to the rampant toxicity crippling this industry (allowing stuff like casual racism and it's ilk to go unchallenged, creating a more closed off, uninviting medium and strangling it from within). It's willful ignorance to try and separate the PDP debacle from whatever you think games are. I imagine games with even remotely challenging material must absolutely cripple people like that (Unless, heyo these people are MASSIVE hypocrites). An earlier comment hit the nail on the head, where it mentioned gaming being taken seriously as art - this is all part of it. If you cant handle discussion of topics that have far reaching issues for the industry as a whole (and this "YT drama" is absolutely one of those) I dont see how you can declare "love and respect" your motto. You're actively ignoring ben's request at the end - to practice empathy. I am so extremely grateful they addressed this issue on the podcast. I hope there is more like this to come, coz there is no such thing as "just focus on the games" and yes, I'm an SJW cuck, apparently,

Steven Blomkamp

Edit: Well it seems the user I was having a conversation with has deleted all their posts in this thread. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You seem to have misunderstood the quote I posted. What it articulates is, that the defense of racist language generally shifts between defense of the word (''I don't see how this is racist'') and defense of the speaker (''S/he's not racist tho!''), depending on what kind of word was spoken or how and by whom it was spoken. A common defense of Pewdiepie one can find in comment sections across the Internet right now focuses not on the word that was spoken (since it is generally accepted to be a term with severe racist connotations), but on the person and how the word was used - ''a simple slip of words'' - both of which perpetuate and legitimize historical structures of racial oppression by using racist discourse and the defense thereof.

ilium

me too, Kyle's face was priceless

Mango

I really enjoyed the discussion on the PDP incident, if only because I enjoy hearing more experienced and educated people in the industry provide their opinions on the matter. I thought it was well discussed, and well thought out and it made me think of the discussion Funhaus had this week around it too. They brought up there (like Ben) that he is a role model, and he has a spotlight on him, whether he likes it or not, due to his success, and because of that incidents like this, and others that he's been involved in this year, get magnified. To me, this falls in with what's happened with celebrities of traditional medias over the years. Think of paparazzi news stories, and radio "celebrity updates" they happen because those people are role models, or because they're successful. That said, if a famous actor, or TV personality went out and said something racist they would be condemned and potentially lose business as well. I think these incidents are just the medium of YouTube, Twitch, etc. becoming less of a wild west, and more of a mainstream media and starting to see the same regulations/expectations put on them. As an aside, I will say I really enjoy having Ian on podcasts. I think he adds a valuable opinion, and attitude because its important to have different trains of thought to really have full meaningful discussions. Thanks for another great podcast!

Great podcast this week. Even if I did not agree with everything said (specifically on the usage of the DMCA) I was glad to see you discuss the PDP issue and to get your opinions on it, after all, I don’t come to the podcast to hear what the latest videogame news is, but rather I come to hear your specific opinions, on whatever that news is. I would encourage you to not shy away from issues like this in the future. That’s not to say that every time a youtuber does something horribly offensive, that you need to comment on it, but in a case such as this, where it is directly related to the industry, and any potential fallout could have far reaching implications on it, I fully welcome it.

BeatenDownBrian

''Those accused of uttering slurs can defend themselves against this charge of racism by insisting that the utterance in question is “not a slur.” In the case of gaffes or slips, the defense focuses, not on the words, but on the speaker. The speaker is defended as “not a racist,” but as someone who has uttered racist words without having racist beliefs or intentions. The actual linguistic content of slurs and gaffes can be identical; one commentator’s slur is another’s gaffe. And both types of metalinguistic discourses – defending words in the case of slurs, but speakers in the case of gaffes – reproduce racializing stigma, protect White virtue, and advance White privilege by denying the existence of White racism.'' From 'The Everyday Language of White Racism' by Jane H. Hill, p. 88

ilium

I'll chime in and say great podcast and I loved not only that they covered the PDP incident but also the way they tackled it was great. It's why I am as big of fans of the EZA crew as I am. Not only for the fun and jolly but also they can have conversations like these and do it better than most in this industry. It's not something to be avoided or walled off from discussion. And it wasn't a one time thing, and he basically almost spouted it out again2 days after his "apology". I don't get when people are bending over backwards to defend him.

Greg Kettering

Pewdiepie has always had odd humor. I've watched and read about his drama and honestly, it's completely blown out of proportion. He's not racist, he's not an anti-semite. He has said countless stupid and irresponsible things in his videos and I agree he needs to take responsibility for that. But the fact of the matter is is that his humor has always been that way and there are many people who enjoy it. By condemning Pewdiepie, you are also condemning his audience, which, quite frankly, encompasses millions and millions of people. These people watch Pewdiepie because he is an interesting and fun personality and supports his own version of love and respect to all of his supporters. His past controversies were due to news reporters cherry picking his jokes and warping his footage to make him look the way he is now. For example, Wall Street Journal took footage of him pointing off screen and used it to make the audience think he was doing a nazi salute. It's all completely ridiculous. Easy Allies is the best in the biz for it's awesome community and we have you guys that cultivate that compassion. I respect you all so much. So it pains me to see you guys take the news at face value and judge an online personality based off of the new's viewpoint rather than understand both sides. Sorry for the rant. Hope you guys have a great week! Love and Respect, Sungwon

Sungwon Moon

I was SO worried when I heard kyle had to address the pewdiepie issue because of the OVERWHELMING patreon requests (i don't bother with the L&R submission posts nowadays, too many voices struggling to be heard) and was consequently SO relieved that there are still many of us patrons that, like me, absolutely don't want the allies to ever cover social media drama ever again. Throwing my hat into the ring to add another vote that wants to keep the podcast focused on games and away from 'gaming personalities'. The discussion ruined the whole tone of the otherwise jolly podcast, haven't even listened to the rest of the show because I was so uncomfortable

Nut Kon

this comment's story stands out so much among all the other ones in this post lol *thumbsup* good story!

Nut Kon

I don't think anyone was implying he's evil. But as Ian pointed out, he leaned into saying the word, like he really meant it and he didn't apologize right after. He was also linked to Nazi-related video a few months ago. So I think it's safe to say he either has some significant racist tendencies or he's extremely careless. Either way, I can understand publishers and developers not wanting their games associated with him.

Dustin McNab

Neutral words? Really? I must say this school of thought sounds too idealistic to me, nothing created by human hands can ever be objective or neutral, you can use destructive things to teach or even save, it doesn't change the fact that they were intended to be destructive.

BHL

I guess I'll add my two cents. Just wanted to say that, for the most part, I felt the PewDiePie discussion was handled fairly maturely. There were insightful points all around (I would really like to especially point to Kyle for bringing up a lot of interesting points, specifically regarding the legality and "ownership" of the content produced), and the discussion was taken with great care. One little point of contention I have is that sometimes I felt the discussion tended away from discussing the action and went more towards discussing the person. While I understand that they are difficult to separate, I typically feel as though discussing the action itself maintains more poignant revelations than discussing the specific person. My point can boil down to this; is PewDiePie "evil"? Well, honestly, probably not. To be honest I don't know anything about him (he very well could be evil), but it seems like maybe he was just being an idiot. I should reinforce that I do not think him being an idiot in any way, shape, or form excuses what he said. I want to be clear: I personally do not support him or anyone that would use such inflammatory, derogatory, or hateful language. However, at the end of the day does this make him "evil"? I think we can classify the action itself as terrible, and hey maybe even evil, but I would personally discourage the characterization of an entire person as evil based on such a limited view of them. We all do terrible things. That doesn't excuse those things, but that doesn't make us "evil". Overall, I just wanted to say I think you guys did great for the most part, just a few meanderings that may have crossed that threshold of "discuss the action, not the person". However, this is obviously a personal thought on the matter so maybe it's irrelevant to most people anyway. L&R

I really thoroughly enjoyed this episode of the podcast. I especially enjoyed the Love & Respect segment and I 100% agree with what all the allies said about the Pewdiepie incident. As the allies said with these types of incidents you will always get people who condone these types of behaviour and as expected you have people in the comments defending Pewdiepie (Felix). As Jones said you just can’t fathom how people can be ok when someone does something like he did I.E not acceptable. You have people in the comments writing total BS and saying stuff like oh the allies were too quick to judge or they don’t know enough to comment on the situation. Sorry but the guy (Felix) has a history of being inappropriate, it wasn’t the first time he got in trouble for doing something inappropriate, he was suspended on twitter for a little while and they had removed his account being verified for a while as well. Again it’s not only a one off thing he did but his behaviour over a series of inappropriate actions in the past where a few companies have penalized him. Defending someone for a one off incident can be ok sometimes (but not always), but how can you defend someone who has in the past acted similarly inappropriate? Like Ian said though that’s the crazy and stupid world we live in nowadays (paraphrasing what he said). For the record I felt the allies covered all of the bases in the discussion and weren’t as ignorant as some people are accusing them of being. They were as fair as they could be about the situation. Keep up the good work allies, in the future please don’t feel restrained in covering these types of topics. I respect you all even more now.

Bakryu

CORRECTION: Sky isn't exclusive forever, just exclusive to iOS this Winter. ThatGameCompany said so in a tweet. "Sky is a multi-platform game about giving, first coming to iPhone, iPad and Apple TV #thatskygame <a href="https://buff.ly/2wXwtx7" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://buff.ly/2wXwtx7</a>" <a href="https://twitter.com/thatgamecompany/status/907670190175002629" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/thatgamecompany/status/907670190175002629</a>

drd7of14

Correction: Even though Rockstar referred to it as a Vive game, LA Noire is not a Vive exclusive. Vive does not have exclusives. The platform is called SteamVR, and all its games can be played across any SteamVR compatible headset, which includes the Vive, Rift, OSVR and the upcoming Primax 8k headset among others.

I disagree on their handling of the topic and wish they would stop doing hottakes on issues they do not fully grasp.

I've always appreciated the Allies being able to steer clear of the sensationalistic dramaqueenery that is ever so present on GAF and Eurogamer. But I think the Allies handed this topic very well and should not shy away from these kinds of topics in the future just steer clear of celeb bashing okay? :) l&amp;r

irene035

Ben, you mentioned that NOBODY should EVER use the 'N' word. Are you also condemning black people who use that word, or were you just referring to people who aren't black.

aguynamedjosh

I had no issues with the discussion or how any of you guys handled it, but from skimming comments on YT/Patreon it just seems that topics like these regarding E-celebs just invite problems no matter what you do. Kyle was right to want to avoid it, and it sucks that this is what comes from it when he tries to address something people kept asking about with the panel

VGJunky

Unfortunate that I had to skip over so much of this Podcast's L&amp;R segment to avoid the PDP trite. Not something I want the Allies covering in any context, because regardless of the content of the question the real problem is going to come around. I don't listen to this Podcast to hear your take on that kind of thing -- in contrast, I support you guys largely in part because you avoid this kind of thing.

Hudson Bilbrey

Great podcast guys. Everyone was on point. Great work!

This podcast was L&amp;R. Please keep speaking your mind and don't shy away from these tougher issues. We are all better for it

Bdun912

While I can't confirm that Kyle has a guest appearance in the next Star Wars film where he enthusiastically states "We're gonna need an army!", I can't not confirm it either.

I think what pewdiepie said was inappropriate, but Ben's hard and fast opinion and Ian's condemnation of Felix really doesn't sit well with me. I'm of the George Carlin school of thought that words are neutral, its the context that makes them good or bad. Felix's use of the word had bad intent behind it, and that made it wrong, but the word in and of itself is not the problem. Ben is wrong in that the word is never ok (its been repurposed by many African Americans and every history teacher should be able to read and explain its historical context to students), and Ian is wrong in claiming that Felix is just a bad person. He did not use it as a racial slur against a black person, he said it in a fit of rage at a video game. It was immature and inappropriate, but nothing more. He apologized. The world goes on. L&amp;R, Allies. Please avoid commenting on this type of drama. I (and I believe many of us) enjoy you guys to get away from this type of content.

Oooo that's a good podcast. I laughed out loud during Ben's interruption of Mango and the pause thereafter.

I hate that Ian labels people like Felix as objectively bad. I don't condone what he said but I also don't let a few bad moments in someones life speak for a person as a whole. People screw up all the time but people also change. Unless you do something to someone directly it's hard for me to say you are objectively a bad person. On that note I feel like left wing culture is in love with these kind of witch hunts. You say that we live in a culture that rewards a lack of empathy but it seems like you're oblivious to your own lack of empathy. This all just my opinion though and I'm glad that there is such a diverse range of opinions in this community. L&amp;R

Video's not public yet so any YT comments you see are also from Patrons atm

VGJunky

Go back to the E3 podcast trainwrecks I think. Funny stuff

VGJunky

It was pretty clear that Kyle only brought it up for discussion because people were writing essays about it in the L&amp;R request post. Damned if they do damned if they don't I think, I'd be perfectly happy if they ignored anything youtuber/streamer drama related for the rest of time though unless it actually has major legal implications down the line

VGJunky

This is not a settled matter of law. Leonard French is essentially arguing from PDP's side of the issue exclusively. Licenses, especially ones as vague as the one French points to in the Firewatch FAQ, are characterized by their ability to be terminated by the party granting the license: Campo Santo. But French's agenda was obvious by the end of the video when he started talking about "social justice" justifications at the end (as if a company not wanting their game associated a person who uses racial slurs is "social justice").

This podcast made me double my pledge. Thanks guys!

After the Pew Die Pie discussion I want to make note of something that happened with Ben Moore a few years ago now. Back during the GT days, Ben and Brad did a stream for FFVII that I really enjoyed. I believe during that stream Ben kept using JC over and over again, which really bothered me personally as a Christian. I sent him a note on Twitter and he immediately responded and apologized directly to me. Not only that, I really haven't heard him use that any more since then. I can't thank you enough for being a community all about L&amp;R because that's what makes you guys special. Thank you!

TravelingSnowman

I think you guys should really learn to admit if you don't know much about a topic. I have seen this a few times on the show where you assume you know what you are talking about and it makes me cringe. If you guys don't know the full details of a subject, maybe you should move onto another topic? For example with PDP, He is not a racist, even though he said something extremely stupid. The first time he got in trouble, it was definitely blown out of proportion. This time was definitely disappointing, but I wouldn't say all of the crazy stuff you guys said in this podcast. He definitely should have known better. On the other hand, the Firewatch guys have no case, they are jumping in to virtue signal at best. PDP said nothing hateful on the streams of Firewatch and the slur wasn't even on the YT platform, itself. Since they have posted on their site that they encourage everyone to stream their game, they are giving out a free license to anyone they want to. Since there are no provisions to the license, someone could stream their game while wearing KKK robes and screaming about some antisimetic stuff and still would be protected by the license they handed out to everyone who wants to stream. On this matter, I recommend you watch this Youtube video by an attorney: <a href="https://youtu.be/uhn6yrNzM3M" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/uhn6yrNzM3M</a> L&amp;R

Shaaheen Peyvan

I totally agree that opening up htat can of worms on the podcast focus more on PDP then the main topic which is can DMCA be used for stuff like this. I don't think the question was about the deed but more if DMCA should be used in this way. Look at jimquisision just becasue he has givin bad reviews devs have gone after him. I think the problem is that DMCA states that you useing content that is not allowed by the creator. The problem is with caposanto using DMCA like this that the video is fully ok and doesn't actually break the rules of DMCA. Its what he said that they are mad about hence something imo totally different. People are mad a the devs because they are miss using the system that should have been the topic imo but what he sad and if he appoloiges and if he ment it blabla. gotta say not the best podcast with that topic in it.

Christophe Fettouhi

Ben is such a genius with words.

Pascal

Greeting from not America, The whole PDP seems really American culture focused. Some words doesn't have the same weight outside America. I heard the panel say multiple times that they can not imagine that it would be acceptable that the "N-word" could be said, period. But it can, it is. It's all in that other cultures don't have the same weight and history attached to it. You can condemn PDP for saying what ever you want, but do keep in mind that he didn't grow up in your culture and that he doesn't live in your culture. You judge what PDP did based on the culture you live in. I also have a judgment from my culture. He said a bad word, everybody does that. Americans are overreacting. I feel that Ian's frustration about empathy has some of it's origins here. It's not that (some number of) people are horribly offensive because they want to, but because it isn't to them and are really confused why it should be considered offensive. The internet is a huge space, to some you could be horribly offensive, to others you could be trying too hard not to offend. I was afraid that the discussion would go this way. The question was where the panel stands on developers claiming video's of youtubers not on what PDP said. PS: I did a bad thing and started writing this before the conversation was done. I my defense it really seemed that it was coming to a close. The fact that the America is more sensitive to this was briefly mentioned, but not that non-Americans are unsensitive to this. I was hoping that my first comment here would be a happy one.

In general I prefer EZA stay out of gamer celebrity drama but given there was a legal angle it made sense and you guys handled it well.

iconmaster

I love you boys with all my heart. Since day one you guys have increased the quality of my life, day to day and beyond. You are the beacon of positivity and love in this otherwise curmudgeonly filled space. You are sunshine where there is typically smog. You are my precious pop-tart. Please do not discuss racism ever again.

Yeah, don't mind all of the pewdiepie apologists on the Youtube comments. It's not controversial to proclaim that racist comments are wrong.

Tyler Travis

Ben on Xenoblade - 12/1, baby! Keep bein' happy!

RiggsRay

On the subject of remasters, I think that they're always necessary from a preservation standpoint. At the very least, PC remasters are the perfect way to do it instead of bringing them back every generation, since then they at least exist in a space where people will always have the hardware to try to make them work (and mods etc can be done to keep them relevant even if operation system compatibilities cause problems in the future). Even if there are graphical upgrades each time, they can be applied through optional texture upgrades/patches etc on PC if the developer/publisher are technically capable. If Bayonetta or Vanquish had been stuck on PS3 for all time or if Okami had been stuck as a PS2/Wii/PS3 game or if Shenmue had been in the Dreamcast Shadow Realm forever, they would eventually disappear and for great game's that would be a real travesty. We work to preserve generations from PS2 and before, but IMO there could be more done to keep alive the great PS3/360 games that have slipped through the cracks. Basically, port MGS4 to PC

VGJunky

Might be worth noting that Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Nier, and Vanquish feel quite different from one another for various reasons, some of them subtle and some of them less so. If that brand of action doesn't jive with Ian though, Vanquish at the very least is extremely different from the rest and you can almost ignore the waist-high walls in favor of zipping around everywhere!

VGJunky

speaking as a swede, we have this weird inpu

irene035

I've been having a great 2013 throwback now with Last of us remastered, Beyond 2 souls, and will get GTA soon. Feels great on PS4 with teh controllers, graphics are sharp as hell, and I'm happy I don't have to rummage in my wardrobe for that dusty, big ol ps3 :)

irene035

Not sure if this counts as a correction or not...I'm sure the panel didn't know, but this whole Campo Santo/Pewdiepie DMCA issue as to whether they have the right to issue the takedown is more unclear because Campo Santo has a very clear entry in their FAQ on their website specifically stating that people are allowed to stream their game and that they are OK with people monetizing the videos people make of their game. Nobody can or should defend what Pewdiepie said, especially in the context he said it, but just from a rights/legal perspective I don't know if Campo Santo's takedown will stick. Here is the exact quote and link to their official FAQ: <a href="http://www.firewatchgame.com/about/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.firewatchgame.com/about/</a> "Can I stream this game? Can I make money off of those streams? Yes. We love that people stream and share their experiences in the game. You are free to monetize your videos as well. It doesn't hurt to let us know on Twitter when you're live. We might show up in your chat!"

Will Schmuck

About PewDiePie: I think you also have to consider that he is not an American and in other countries swearing is seen differently and he probably wasn't really aware of the intensity of the word he used, even though he should know. Of course that doesn't make it okay, definitely not. But I also don't think he did that on purpose to insult someone. For someone whose first language is not English, the subtle differences in language and how certain words are perceived is not always apparent. The music industry doesn't help that. You can hear swear words all the time. That's why it's very difficult for a non-native sometimes. Again, I don't think what he did is okay, I don't like him very much generally, but I think that's a perspective that is important.

Timo Arnken

It is quite fascinating to observe four guys argue pluralism by means of moralism.^^ These are the moments I realize just how different the European understanding of these concepts are to the British/American one.

erni

CORRECTION: thatgamecompany tweeted out that Sky is a multi-platform game &amp; that it is coming to Apple devices first. <a href="https://twitter.com/thatgamecompany/status/907670190175002629" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/thatgamecompany/status/907670190175002629</a>

Joshua Turner

Excellent L&amp;R discussion guys. It's a tough subject to rise to and nigh-impossible to resolve, but you did a great job.

DaleBastion

I think streams are transformative works. PewDiePie transforms them into low entertainment. Were as Bosman made Tetris a competition and vessel for telling weird made up stories. DMCA abuse has happened with film reviews and analysis and Jim Sterlings works.

Kyle doesn't look at Patreon for corrections only youtube comments

Ibrahim Sozer

Feel sad that my correction didn't make it in, i guess it's oké because this is not a graphic design podcast (but it's not a Star Wars podcast neither...), but i feel even worse that Kyle mentioned it in the Nintendo podcast and it was obvious he totally ignored my input about the subject, i did the research for you and i thought that would have been appreciated at least.... L&amp;R

Randy Verschueren

Thanks for answering my question, I need Alien vs predator meets PUBG. Excellent!

What's that sign off?

great podcast guys so muchlove and respect super hyped for the souls retro bring it

John Wingate

I love remastered games. They give me an excuse to go back and play older games I loved and sometimes give me a chance to play something I missed out on. For example, I never played Shadow of the Colossus. I can't go back and capture the magic of when a game was first released. And I know even a good remaster isn't always as good but it's better than nothing. Especially when a game has not aged well or is hard to find on more current platforms.

ComboBreaker

Good news Ben! You don't look like an idiot!

Luke Sandstrom

"The Star Lores with Kyle Bosman" $45,000 Patreon Goal.

Cash

Yes ! best EZA podcast line up is here &lt;3

Térence Caron